“Nashim daatam kaalos”- TRS

Monday, February 16, 2009
I have learned a lot of Gemara and Halacha, and every time I come across a sexist statement I cringe. Truth be told the Torah is full of sexist remarks, and it is hard believing is something that clearly does not make sense.

Last year I and my good friend Schenur were learning about woman testifying before a court, and how they are not believed unless they state the information by way of gossip or chit-chat.

We got into a whole discussion if my hypothetical wife saw a murder and she wanted to testify in Beis Din, can we say today she would not be accepted? How does that make sense? I know her (hypothetically) to be a trustable source; I know that she is brilliant, what would I say?

It was a tough one; we started discussing a lot of social and scientific claims in Judaism that do not make much sense. The problem is that they claim it empirically true or they claim it based on rational, not on Torah which we supposedly could slime out and say it does not necessary have to be reasonable.

I am not a feminist; I do not agree with everything the movement stands for. But like Voltaire said “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”

It really felt good to read seforim blog’s post about how we have changed, and that maybe even Torah would agree today that woman are equal in this regard.

I think that anybody who says these sexist statements based on Gemara or Poskim should really think twice if they are embarrassing our Chachomim. It is a Chillul Hashem and might be against Torah to state their opinions as if it is relevant today. (Just look at all the Anti-Semitic blogs and sites that use this as ammo)

Seforim blog:

“The fact is that earlier generations often thought very differently about things. For example, we are much more sensitive to matters such as human rights than they were. They took slavery for granted, while the very concept of owning another person is the most detestable thing imaginable to us. Followers of R. Kook will put all of this in a religious framework, and see it as humanity's development as it gets closer to the Messianic era”
“As noted already, I have observed this personally when haredi figures, and not only of the kiruv variety, have asserted that certain ideas and concepts are in opposition to Jewish values, and have then been flustered when I showed them that great figures of the past have actually put forth what today is regarded, even in the haredi world, as immoral statements.”
“These are incredible words. R. Kook was also "confident that if a particular moral intuition reflecting the divine will achieves widespread popularity, it will no doubt enable the halakhic authorities to find genuine textual basis for their new understanding.”

10 comments:

Anonymous said...

saying that the torah has to be changed because woman today decided they are just like men is embarrassing our chachomim.

Rationally pious said...

TFM

“just like men”

Scientifically they have the same brain, with the same capable cerebral activity. They are a viable witness as any other human being.
Are you denying this?

I never said the whole Torah has to be changed, the fundamentals will always be there, but just because you are a sexist in the name of righteousness is not something I think G-D would be a fan of. Back then the ethics were different.

My point was I am very confident that had Chachomim (and hopefully when Moshiach comes where the woman will be higher than men)lived today I think the laws would be very different.

Rationally pious said...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067910.html

Anonymous said...

Find me scientific source that shows that men & women have the same brain.

They dont. Even according to most scientist today. Besides, it has been in study after study that men think, talk & act different from women. Inherently.

It is painfully transparent when watching some of these wanna-be feminists that their instinct tells them to act one way - and they are fighting that & acting like a man would.

Therefore, any difference there are between men and women still exist. & if someone ruled a hundred years ago that women can't do xyz - that ruling was likly based on the inherent (and still present) difference between men and women.

Anonymous said...

& who cares what Ovadia Yosef says?

That's neither here nor there.

Rationally pious said...

So you are saying woman’s brains are physiologically significantly different? Wow.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE5D8163DF93BA15751C0A963958260

They may use different parts of their brains, but in no way are they different human beings. Second of all, generalizing is not something one should do from a logical perspective.

Thirdly and most important, the difference is subtle, and besides when it comes to fundamental human capabilities they are one and the same.

The fact that woman “act” like men is a different conversation, and nothing to do with laws and stereotypes.

“can't do xyz”

Like testifying before a court? That they are unreliable? Are you saying that they are incapable of translating what they see?
You don’t sound rational, and above all do not sound just. You are in very bad company my friend.

“what Ovadia Yosef says?”

I do. He Is a valid authority in Halacha, and the fact that he allowed this, is quite meaningful.

Anonymous said...

first off - lets save the personal attacks for later (& trust me, I'll destroy you on that front); stick to the facts for now.

secondly - what difference does it make whether the physiological make-up of the brain is the same so long as they use it differently?

my point here is that the outcome of any given logical process can be different depending on if its a man or women.

thirdly - the difference is not subtle at all. women have been known to exaggerate claims more & make decisions based on emotion rather then fact.

this can definitely affect the truth of their testimony in court as well as many other things.

fourth - and most importantly ;) - I never said I agree with the Chachomim's rulings regarding women. My objection to your post was that nothing has changed since then. To put it more clearly, whatever reasoning they used to make those rulings still stand. So saying you think that should change now means you object to their original reasons.

Regarding O.Y. - He's a people pleaser & some sephardi hobo offered him a blowjob in exchange for the ruling...who say no to that? those bitches are pretty fine ;)

Rationally pious said...

‘first off - lets save the personal attacks for later (& trust me, I'll destroy you on that front”

I attacked you? I said being irrational and unethical is a dangerous position.

Please stop talking like you are in second grade, where you feel like you have to compensate for your tiny wee wee.

“so long as they use it differently?”

The question becomes who cares how they use it?
The reality is, that we have cognitive processes, and woman score on all test at least within certain range. They can translate sensory information like all males, basically they do everything the way we do from a logical and rational perspective.

This is a very ignorant conversation, and truth be told I am not a neurologist. But I think basic knowledge of biology would suffice to inform you that saying they cannot testify or that their cognitive abilities are impaired somehow is quite idiotic, and above all immoral.

“the outcome of any given logical process can be different depending on if it’s a man or women.”

Are you saying woman translate reality different?

Maybe we should question those women who are in Stanford earning their PhD in physics.

Second of all; all science contradicts that very statement.

Did you even bother to read the article?

“thirdly - the difference is not subtle at all. women have been known to exaggerate claims more & make decisions based on emotion rather then fact.”

My G-D. Does your warped brain actually think that what you are saying is true?

“whatever reasoning they used to make those rulings still stand.”

Oh is that so? So MRI and all the modern scientific tools have informed us very little regarding the way they process information?
T
he world has changed how we perceive woman from a social perspective as well as empirical data that proves that woman can testify as well if not better than males. They are humans with equal cognitive abilities.

Regarding O.Y…..I guess one does show his true colors in the end.

Anonymous said...

LOL. Just like old times. You're still thick as shit.

If I didn't know any better I'd keep on arguing with you.

I must have spiked the traffic to your blog by about %100 the past 2 days.

But - all good things must come to an end. I have a life to enjoy...

Be well. & keep on arguing - it got you this far ;)

Oh wait, what's that I'm hearing?..you haven't gotten anywhere...

xx

Rationally pious said...
This comment has been removed by the author.