Since I am a football fan I am going to start off with a football analogy and go from there.
There are times in a game when a player does something mediocre; say he makes a nice tackle, no biggie. Then he starts celebrating like he won the lottery, he does this whole dance and he makes this whole hoopla, sometimes they fake pantsing themselves, sometimes it is just weird what they do. Well when I see this type of stuff it annoys me. When people make a big deal out of nothing it pisses me off. I guess it just shows that we are idiots for blowing things out of proportion.
Chof Beis Shvat is one of those things we make a mountain out of a molehill. The reality is that a miniscule of people spoke to her, and even less had anything remotely called a relationship with her. She did nothing publicly for the sake of Lubavitch, that is to say no one spoke to her on public matters, she had nothing to do with community affairs period, and we go and make a big deal out of it like she was G-D’s gift to mankind.
Now if there was a precedent for it, celebrating the memory of our leader’s wives, I would understand. But we never did, even the wives of Rabbaim that Chassidim used to visit, and ones that sacrificed their lives for their husbands no one says peep, why?
I think the aristocratic people of Chabad created the holiday to parade their “amazing” relationship that they had with the Rebbatzin, as if they are elite. I am whining.
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51 comments:
it's the times of Moshiach - nekaveh tesovev gever, and all that jazz.
but what's really important is that as long as all the girls of Lubavitch have an excuse to take over CH and shriek on street corners once a year, who gives a darn?
First of all I mean no disrespect and wish RCM the greatest aliyah
I think that this was a person, who was just comfortable supporting her husband,
and doing her own thing in private. We know she had another life (secular - library) that nobody till this day (strangely)
seems or is able to expound on. Also she seems to have been a bit of a radical ( a Rebbe's wife driving, for shame!)
Yet, with all this, why wasn't she more involved? I agree that it was a shame that she only interacted with a few people.
She should have been at all those conventions and she should have been a real mother to all the bochurim and girls - this is what Rebbetzins do, especially the wives of Rosh Yeshivahs etc.
( For that matter, why today aren't there more activities by the wives of the leaders for the kids? Not everyone has a perfect home. ( subject for RP? )
In fact, if you would take a poll, I would venture to say that more ppl become frum because of the wife of the Shliach then the Shliach himself. Kids are looking for comfort and nurturing and the wives provide that.
This whole kvudah bas melech is a sham especially in L, Because if were really true, there would be no convention at all,
and certainly none of all these workshops teaching women how to interact.
To be honest, I think that there was some serious painful psychological issues going on here with RCM ( war, suffering, lack of children etc) that caused her to introvert and escape into a secular double-life.
Another contradiction?
Cheerio,
Yup it’s all about the jazz.
Anon,
I think you hit it on the nail. Although it is hard to generalize and demand that all wives fit into a square status we set for them, RCM maybe just was not up to the task.
But celebrating her like she was up to it or like she WAS involved, to me just is not right.
She had a hard life no doubt, the effects of which are unknown, but definitely something to think about.
Was the Rebbe was any different?
Part of it has to do with the Rebbe's honoring her publicly after 22 Shevat.
Of course he would, she was his wife and personal foundation, but so were all the wives of our leaders. At least i hope so.
He went just short of establishing the holiday of 22 Shevat by speaking about the day every year.
I don't know if you noticed, but Dor Hashvi'i makes holidays out of all the milestones in the Rebbe's life, especially the ones where he spoke about them publicly. Saying that the Rebbe didn't feed the chassidim into 22 Shevat is like saying he didn't feed them on 5 Teves.
However, granted that all the hype and travel came from chassidim.
And not least of all, the historical revisionism.
So here is where we disagree, as to what extent you are correct.
Was the Rebbe’s attitude that the chips will fall as they may, or was it a directive to institute the day as a holiday.
It seems to be the Rebbe took more of an outsider approach, as in let them decide, I am not getting involved type of manner, and not just regarding this but regarding Hey Taves too. Heck he stood outside CH screaming at boys why they are not learning.
And the implication goes further, regarding the day to day operation of Merkos, of our educational system, and countless other endeavors.
It seems the Rebbe talked about ideas and then acted like Milton Freidman “Free Market= less government” do not get me involved, the job is yours.
And when he said Sichos about it annually?
That was his business,something he cared about and wanted to the Chassidim to care about it because he did. Does that mean parading her through the streets? Making holidays and flying in woman from across the world when people can barely afford bread?
Something he cared about? He never made a big deal about her previously ... he may not have called for an ingathering of women, but he definitely cemented her legacy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMX_C88Yh_E
This is a moronic conversation for me to get involved with, but...fact is, the Rebbe made a huge deal out of 22 Shevat. Therefore, the Rebbe's Chassidim make a huge deal out of it. Someone who isn't a chassid wouldn't understand this. And yes, I mean you, RP, because you don't consider yourself to be a chassid the way berel shemtov considers himself to be a chossid. You might claim to get it intellectually, but emotionally, I think it would be fair to say you're not all there.
Regarding all this gossip about the rebbitzen? Whatever, but all I can say is, none of us were there back in the day, none of us knew what went on. Bichlal, did any of the chabad rebbitzens have major public roles? I know that the FR's wife got herself involved in things...and the Rebbe Rashab's also was involved in TT, but otherwise?
RP's problem is the way all these huge accomplishments and heroic accolades have been attributed to the Rebbetzin. I don't think his problem is with her herself.
TRS,
I am not going to get into a subjected argument on what a Chossid is, and I could care less about Shemtov’s perceived definition of the term.
I have only respect for RCM, and I wish her an aliyah and hope she is able to Malyitz Yosher on klal Yisroel, but there are lines, borders. We do not blow things out of proportion, and sure as hell do not demand little girls to fly in for absolutely no reason whatsoever, and like Nemo said rehashing the five stories people know, and making her into Devorah Haniviah or Shelomtzion.
The Rebbe made a big deal out of it, what do you expect him to do? It was his wife.
Does that mean we make parades and spend millions of dollars to make a Macy’s like firecracker show? No!
Does that mean we have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on plane tickets so they can watch a show in BR? No!
You have a little fabrangens and that is it.
If you do not see the waste and you do not see the disproportionate celebratory propaganda, it is no fault but your own.
so you don't see any good in convention at all?
Cheerio,
Of course i see good, I just do not see value, and i see too much propaganda that waters down the truth, and makes it look phony.
I would like to add to the cost the boy/girl effect which i am sure is not something the Rebbe would want.
Be a little less rational and a lot more pious.
and given your numb, cold, skepticism to anything holy, perhaps it would be more fitting to have Rabbi Sklifkin for your profile pic. Don't bring the Ragatchover into your mess; if you think that you are emulating the Ragatchovers rationality, you a terribly mistaken. This is the kind of rational thinking of a kalte misnaged or MO academic. A chassid ("pious") is warm.
Thank you Dovid!
RP: you totally missed my point. What is precious to a Rebbe is precious to a chossid. What is important to a Rebbe is important to a chossid. If you don't get that, then whatever.
I'm going to have to side with the "chassidim" here. I see plenty of benefit in the 22 Shevat convention, even if it's underpinnings are somewhat dubious. I feel that any event which makes us feel more communal is commendable, and the date here is just a good excuse at a convenient time.
Dovid,
“numb, cold, skepticism to anything holy”
How little you know, and how much you talk, I think it what my whole life I fight against. Your statement epitomizes everything that is wrong in the world; stupidity, generalization and emotionalizing everything.
And you prove this almost immediately; you have a problem with my profile picture, can you get anymore immature?
I respect the man, and have learned his Torah, about his sacrifice for Torah ideals. He was a man that appreciated Torah and left the politics at the door. He was a man of truth above all else. I could care less what you think or what fits you preconceptions and prejudice.
“A chassid ("pious") is warm.”
By warm you mean non-intelligent, capricious and abuse of sense which is a G-D given talents?
I do not think people would categorize me as cold.
Nemo really has to defend me against these pigeonhole accusations.
Maybe they're correct? From your posts they certainly seem to be. You know, you are what you write. Do I wish I was everything I write on TRS? No. But that's who I am, no matter how much I taanah otherwise.
TRS,
Precious and fabricating a whole identity are two different things.
Some would say that on a fundamental level a contradiction.
If you think for a second that the Rebbe sanctioned half the things that go on in Lubavitch today, you are more gullible and stupid then i thought.
TRS,
Talk about pretentious and conceited. You are full of contradictions. But that is why i appreciate you.
Half the things that go on in lubavitch is very different from the kinnus hashluchos/22 shevat, and you know it.
And please, I'm not looking for love from you.
I knew why I stopped reading your blog, I just can't remember why I started reading it again.
First of all i think i should make myself clear that the convention for Shluchos, is much different then the propaganda they spew, and different then flying in HS girls for her.
One is an event that they should have, which they set on 22 Shvat in memory of RCM.
Two, is the whole HS thing, plus the hype and promotion of a not so great a figure in the grand scheme of Judaism.
There is no precedent for it, the proof is in the pudding.
TRS, i am sorry you feel that way.
But do me a favor if you are going to come back, can we please just stop this whole "i don't know what i am doing here" crap?
Ah, Rationally, you're learning the hard way that speaking your mind and making friends don't always go hand in hand.
Like, whatever. I guess I learned my lesson this time.
You know Pious, its fine, speak your mind, sorry for judging you, I don't know you.
But its not just this chof-beis shvat thing, when I read your posts I often get the impression that you are cold-hearted to belief/faith. You seem to ridicule faith in purity/holiness.
However, I certainly see you are warm towards the Ragachover, and you took the time to understand tzafnas paneyach, which is much more than I can say. I'm sure that despite his rationality, he believed with simple faith that the world was not older than he was taught and that the sun revolves around the earth, however thats another story. There's a place for deep rationality, there's a place for simple trust.
PS. IMO TRS isn't conceited, he may enjoy attention, but definetely not conceited. He can take criticism.
Nemo,
If my goal was to make blogging “friends” then I should shoot myself right here and now, there is no use living if I have to make cyberspace friends. I am a loser.
I write on this blog to express myself.
TRS you are better than this; stop acting like a prima-donna.
Dovid,
“There’s a place for simple trust.”
True, did I ever say otherwise?
But that is a very small portion of Judaism, most of it must make sense. Expanding the pure faith ideology into all realms is foolish.
And who really cares how old the world is? You think it would make a difference in how he conducted himself?
The fact that we feel the need to fight worthless battles, to me shows what is true and what is not.
It is not essential to Judaism how old the world is, or whether the geocentric model is correct or the heliocentric model.
The only reason I'm stopping is for my health.
"But that is a very small portion of Judaism, most of it must make sense."
No, none of it must make sense, the whole Torah is chukim, even the mishpatim and aydos are chukim. In your own words,
"G-D is not a mathematical theorem nor can he be empirically proven. He is like the black hole. So we collect a few arguments, put them together and there seems to be a convincing argument for the belief in G-D. No one argument is sufficient."
"It is not essential to Judaism how old the world is, or whether the geocentric model is correct or the heliocentric model."
Yes it is, its the difference between being rational and being pious.
TRS, are you okay, something wrong?
Dovid,
“none of it must make sense”
I am sorry you live like that, forgive me if I cannot. It does not make it true because you say so. If you want I can bring proof throughout Torah that disagrees with you, but it is futile. You are who you are, and from my sociological knowledge, you are unwilling to change.
“here seems to be a convincing argument”
Is that not rational?
“Yes it is, its the difference between being rational and being pious.”
They are one in the same. To put it into Gemara Loshon “lo am haaretz chosid”.
"אין המציאות הולכת בעקבות הדעות. אלא הדעות הנכונות הולכות בעקבות המציאות".
“as a general rule, that Themistius was right in saying that the properties of things cannot adapt themselves to our opinions, but our opinions must be adapted to the existing properties.”
Maimonides Morah Nevuchim Part 1 Chapter 71
No, I'm not doing particularly ok. Btw, I'm in CH for shabbos, wanna hook up?
Sure, if i don't hook up with a significant other. Who am i kidding, I had to say for some self-respect.
I do need a writ of confidentiality.
TRS- Sorry you're not feeling well, refuah shleimah. I didn't understand you the first time, I thought you meant by commenting here it was effecting your health.
Pious- Come on, give me a break, "lo am haaretz chossid" means that someone that does not know Torah cannot be a chossid. Someone that is illiterate in modern science is not an am haaretz.
Of course we must learn as much of the taamei hamitzvos that was revealed to us in Torah, however no matter how much we learn, we cannot even begin to truly rationalize Hashem or His reasons. Also, there is Naaseh, VeNishmah, first comes serving Hashem just out of faith, then you try to rationalize/understand as much as possible.
Dovid,
What do you want me to tell you?
How about all those philosophical books our master have written?
Teachers^ Many have written major works. Why?
I don't know which masters/teachers and which philosophical books you are referring to?
What do I want you to say? Like I said before, you're free to say what you like. But I would like you to consider that even when things don't make rational sense to your mind, it doesn't mean you should offhandedly ridicule or dismiss it.
Like when cheerio said "it's the times of Moshiach - nekaveh tesovev gever, and all that jazz." Maybe she's actually right?
But no, you sceptically blow it off- "Yup it’s all about the jazz."
Dovid,
You go from the Five books of Moses to some very fickle interpretations of a 20th century rabbi?
Are you kidding me?
What philosophical books?
Ralbag, Rambam, Saadia Gaon, and countless other Rabbi's, I wonder why they wrote their books if as you say who need's rationality?
Oy what are you going off about now?
1. I merely wanted to know who/what exactly your ambiguous statement was referring to.
2. I never said "who need's rationality"! What I have been arguing the whole time is quote "none of it [Judaism, Torah, Mitzvos, Rebbes, etc] MUST make sense"- go back and look. I.E. even if you cannot rationalize it, don't just blow it off.
“Of course we must learn as much of the taamei hamitzvos that was revealed to us in Torah”
So that is all Morah Nevuchim is? How about Kuzari?
Very little of Judaism is irrational, true there are elements and very fundamental ideology that we must accept a priori, but that is a very minute amount.
The problem becomes when we expand that small net to what Rabbi’s said of their own understanding even when it goes against factual empirical evidence, and we claim literal interpretations -our interpretations-to mean something it does not, and then claim one must have blind faith?
Wisdom and rationality is all about where to draw lines.
A person is pious when he does something because it’s the truth, and because he understands it to be true he gives maximum effort all the time.
"none of it [Judaism, Torah, Mitzvos, Rebbes, etc] MUST make sense"- go back and look. I.E. even if you cannot rationalize it, don't just blow it off’
Those are the Books of Moshe, and of which very few commandments are Chukim. Now I accept those without rationality because G-D is rational to me and because it makes sense the Torah was given to Moshe.
Now those are very few commandments, half of which we do not even do today, and some reasons are given in Morah Nevuchim, so we are down to even less.
Truth be told, when it comes to action and laws I have very few objections, although I do believe in our history we have take on too many Chumras that do not make much sense, and I might add we have very little bases for them NOW(versus in the past when the variables were very different)
But when it comes to Haskafa which is a dime a dozen, every dumb guy has his own inane ideas and preconceptions about how to live a Torah life, then it must conform to rationality, MUST.
The speed of light is C; we know how far away the stars are ERGO we know how old the world is. Its deductive reasoning, if you disagree with this you disagree with plain arithmetic.
Saying the speed of light could have been faster, or G-D could have made it look like that, is a logical flaw which is appealing to ignorance. We do not know. It can be either way, we must accept evidence that is empirical and right in from of us.
Dovid: BH I'm feeling fine.
Just this blog is bad for my health.
i was thinking about this post over shabbos, and i thought of what i wanted to say: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Don't destroy goodness in the name of greatness.
?
There are no grammatical errors in that one......
People who use grandiose language to describe a noun, cheapen real accomplishments or beatuy...
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